İBlack Apologetics Ministry 2001-2003
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To have a discussion with a member of the Five Percent concerning Christianity is pretty difficult. They have been taught to shun any form of religion and are generally not able to express well their position(s) in a rational way. There are flaws in their argumentation. It is a struggle to get them to think critically and logically (although you can become frustrated because they would honestly claim that their thinking is very clear, informed and logical).
Five Percenters are often guilty of engaging in ad hominem attacks. Argumentum ad hominem literally means "argument directed at the man". The argument will become directed at the person in order to deflect the argument from the facts. Another violation (probably the most prominent error) that the Five Percent views will contain is a non sequitur. A non sequitur is an argument where the conclusion is drawn from premises which aren't logically connected with it. (i.e. The black man is God). You need to be aware that (although many deny it) they will mostly sound like:
This summary of Naturalism was taken from Naturalism.org and it paints a pretty accurate portrait of Five Percenters and their claims to truth about the universe:
What constitutes knowledge: Naturalism as a world view is based on the premise that knowledge about what exists and about how things work is best achieved through the sciences, not personal revelation or religious tradition. The knowledge we have of ourselves and our place in nature is the achievement of a collective effort to construct a consistent view of the world that permits prediction and control. This effort proceeds by experiment and rational inquiry, and the knowledge gained is always subject to further testing as understanding matures. Wanting something to be true, or having the intense personal conviction that something is true, are never grounds for supposing that it is true. Scientific empiricism has the necessary consequence of unifying our knowledge of the world, of placing all objects of understanding within a single, overarching causal context. Under naturalism, there is just one, inclusive world in which phenomena arise.
A common thread that is seen in Five Percent dialogues is that what they know, or what has been revealed to them has been demonstrated "mathematically". Mathematically meaning, according to their lessons, which according to the Five Percent, hold the keys to reality.
Because these beliefs (I use the word belief here even though I know that the average Five Percenter would be vehemently opposed to this term. I use it because contrary to what they have been convinced of, they have not demonstrated that what their Nation proposes is true/fact) are so firmly entrenched, pre-evangelism is necessary to get them thinking about the problems with some of their assertions. To engage a Five Percenter in a conversation about the saving power of Jesus Christ, without removing some of the barriers that exist concerning Christianity is to get nowhere. That is why dialogue 2 and 3 that I participated in was purposely executed as a fact-finding mission.
I was hoping that by just placing these dialogues on the page, the error and awkward construction of arguments would be obvious, but based on some feedback that I have seen, I believe that the Five Percenters feel these dialogues being posted here are pretty convincing. Because of this, I am going to come back here soon and summarize/evaluate each one of these dialogues and demonstrate the errors of thinking and argumentation on the part of the Five Percenter, section by section.
In the meantime, to get a feel for the "flavor" of a dialogue with the Five Percent or the Nation of Gods and Earths, here are the following exchange(s) taken from the Nation of gods and earths yahoogroups messageboard. These dialogues represent in a nutshell what they have been programmed to believe about Black Supremacy and the assertions concerning historic Christianity. I know that these dialogues do not represent the NGE as a whole, however they are not inconsistent with what I have been exposed to concerning their way of thinking/responses.
Dialogue One I simply observed this exchange
Dialogue Two Specific questions commented on via email
Dialogue Three A little more in-depth explanation about the nature of "gods"
Dialogue #1
what are you guys all about...I don't understand...I feel like your
Message: 5
Message: 9
Peace Misinformed Onlooker,
Notice You say loving your neighbor, but you
I say your Christianity is a "so-called doctrine" that you need to
If God made everyone in his image, then what is the black man?? His
Are you speaking on it but not thinking on it?
Ask before you comment, we are not separating race. We are the first,
Honestly sir, you need to ask more inquisitive questions and keep the
Message: 2
Please, allow me.
First of all, The god's and earth's don't follow a doctrine, it is a
2) we have endured the worst of treatment from all kinds.
3) here's a little quote from your egyptain book (bible) "blessed are
4) For-get about it. I will not waste anymore letters for proof.
Even more, Genesis mentions nothing of a son or a holy ghost (what
There are many things that pollute the minds of black america, I
The "gods" get no media attention so where do you get your opinion
from?
Do a little research and you will see that it is not what you think.
Message: 6
Ok,
Message: 7
Your Mystery God does not exist.
TO BE CONTINUED SOON....
He is a figment of your
The Original Man is the source of all energy and the source
This simply reaffirms the power and strength of the Black Man
Peace
Message: 7
Peace,
Dialogue #2
Peace I will strive to answer these to the best of my ability.
1.) I have heard contradictory explanations of the following so if
more than one of you can answer this or at least agree I will
know that I have a representative answer: How EXACTLY do you
consider the Asiatic Black Man to be God?
What is his role and what separates him from an ordinary man?
2.) Is there any historical data or evidence that supports the
Yakub theory?
3.) Should I not consider a professed member of the NGE to be
legitimate or knowledgeable if that person consumes alcohol
and/or smokes marijuana?
4.) Why is the knowledge of the Asiatic black man presented as
fact?
Do you disagree that it takes a certain amount of faith to
believe that theory to be true?
5.) Do you, as a member of the NGE consider yourself to be an
atheist?
In order to be physical you have to be real which is a word that expands to what society calls reality. Alot of things in society arent real
like the way that Society explains to us that God is a Righteous Unseen Being Existing everywhere.
God is not unseen, for he is seen and heard
everywhere, for he is the all eye seeing. First of all, the root word of Being comes from the word BE which means to exist. we know that if one runs him or
herself into a wall as fast as they could that it'd hurt due to the simple fact that one is now experiencing the laws of physics which tells your senses that
when your body collides with the wall, It'll hurt like hell and may even cause some damage to your body. Thats real. Reality is more than just
perception.
An atheist is One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods. So since The Black man is God who's proper name is Allah, how
would that make me or anyone else in the nation of Gods and Earths Atheist since we deal with actual fact, and that fact is that God exists in the form of
the Supreme Being black man from asia(another name for the planet Earth which means"land of the rising sun")...
WE have agreed as a nation that the
only God is the Sun of man. the Blackman is the Foundation of all the human families of the planet Earth, just as the sun is the foundation for the solar
system. Besides, Original Black man means: First Dominant Mind(energy) or Intelligence(Lifeform). This Has nothing to do with hating whites...In
biology or when dealing with dna,melanin and or etc, the dominant man is that one of color. The recessive is white...DNA of the original man is stronger
than the colored or caucasian whiteman.This aint to say that white dont have melanin, it just isnt as strong as the Black man's so the Colored or
caucasian whiteman is weak boned(body) and weak blooded(Mind).
It Gets deeper than this. I need to stop there because this is like me tryna feed a
baby steak,pizza and etc without givin it smaller portions.
Or, put another way, is it not true that an NGE member and an atheist share things in common?
Peace,
I build that I answered every question right and exact enough for you to gain a better understanding of what we are all about. another place you could go to find out what
we teach is www.allahsnation.net
Justice Universal Ruler Allah(Jura)
Dialogue #3
NGE member: The Black MAN is God, not just the Black "guy" or any other
male young or adult that is a complete imbecile. If you mean, by
"ordinary man" any of the above examples I gave of a COMPLETE savage
in pursuit of happiness, then the difference between a MAN and
Male is that a MAN has an adequate Knowledge of Self to bring about
more life than he is putting life to death. You don't have to be
in the Nation of Gods and Earths to be a Man or to have "some"
Knowledge of Self. However the ULTIMATE Knowledge of Self, for the
Black Man, is to Know that he is the Supreme Being, and that there
is no Mystery God, or other type of authority in control of his
life, other than his Own Self. Some people use the popular
term "humanism" instead of "athiesm".
Athiest teach that there is no purpose to life in general,
everything just happens, and c'est la vie, and all that. "Humanist"
on the other hand teach that their is no spook god and that creation and
nuturing in the universe is left up to the gifts and powers of "humans".
I don't consider myself to be a "human" in general, because
of the connotation of "humans" dying.
I don't die, my afterlife is in the babies.
So I am just a Man.
I will investigate your other questions in time.
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 00:19:26 -0000
From: "RebKac"
Subject: What is this?
so called doctrine is racist...I don't know what made you guys
believe that us black people are the "true race"...God made everyone
equally...God made everyone in his own image...in Genesis it is
stated that God the father, God the son, and God the holy ghost, made
man in His image....I don't know who you guys think you are, but you
are polluting the feeble minds of our youth and of black men and
women...How can you speak on peace when you are separating a
race...how can you speak on love and not love thy neighbor because
he/she is not black? There is hardly anyone who is truly black by
race. Once they have any background in them, whether it be
white, chinese etc. they are part of that race...honetly you
guys...what is this?
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 00:28:40 -0000
From: wise_saviour_allah
Subject: Re: What is this?
We are the original people of the earth as the great scholar the
honorable elijah muhammad,j.a.rogers proves it too.Furthermore we are
not racist we are the original people so how can we be racist?
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 00:58:12 -0000
From: naasia_eternal
Subject: Re: What is this?
On the flip side, are you asking us to forget what has happened in
this country to our people??
There is an assumption here that if you don't ascribe to their "way of life" you have to forget about what happened to our people
can't possibly love your own self if you dont see why we should trace
our roots and embrace our supremacy, as in being the first man and
woman to be bathed in the sun.
Not finding out our history was never suggested. Over and over again you will see when having a dialogue with a five percenter that your resistance to their erroneous ideas is met with suggestions that you are a sellout. It is the HISTORY that they are proposing that is the problem. Why not stick to the facts and discuss dates, places, scholarship, etc.?
really study the roots of. Then look at what's going on in the news
today. Your leaders are molesting little children and even some
people who believe what you believe have been guilty of killing
people who look just like you.
Again, a tactic commonly used. Deflecting the message TO Christians by bringing up the actions OF "so-called" Christians... Roman Catholicism has often been mixed up in a hodge podge of anti-Christian rants by Elijah Muhammed so this poke naasia takes at the priests is nothing new... It would seem that Muslim leaders would have more credibility if they didn't misrepresent what Christianity teaches in such a gross manner.
image. Black man=God.
A major non-sequitor here... Because the bible says that God made man in His image does not follow that the black man is God. Also, why on earth would a five percenter accept anything that the bible says as being authoritative? If you believe that statement then do you believe any other passages?
eternal, and perpetual race.
questions based on false assumptions to yourself.
Peace,
Queen NaAsia
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 15:47:10 -0000
From: "sun_osiris"
Subject: Re: What is this?
way of being.
Second of all, here's why us "black people" are the true race.
1) we are superior to every other being on this planet, both mentally
and especially physically. (I don't mean that we can lift more pounds
of iron either)
How so? Please explain... Always, short answers that don't really say much. Unverified assertions...
So have other races... American Indians come to mind.
the meek, for they shall inherit the earth"
there is definitely more, but is it worth it...
Again, they see nothing wrong with borrowing from the bible in areas that don't conflict with their "way of being". Why quote the bible to a Christian if you don't accept its authority? There is no way in Hades that a Five Percenter would listen to a Christian quote/point to the bible authoritatively as a reason or a back up for an argument.
Another example of the pompous attitude presented after "showing and proving"... What exactly did they present in 1-3?
are you reading).
Again, alluding to the bible as if it is authoritative in their view... I have to believe that there is some subjective understanding of some obscure passages that are being held onto by this particular Five Percenter...
sincerely doubt that the gods and earths are solely, or even largely
responsible. All that takes place here is reminders... of what do
you ask? Of our natural place on the planet.
We are seperated from all others because we have been seperated.
Would you go where you are not wanted? Racism in a negative way is
not always the case. Everyone has their preferences concerning who
they like to be around, talk to, etc.. Some people are bogus and
have no knowledge of how to apply lessons of life to living. Some
people are trapped in a slavery state of mind. But remember there
are two sides to a coin.
What?
It's not all peachy, but its certainly not tripped out.
Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 00:47:14 -0000
From: "RebKac"
Subject: Understand
First of all I'm a young black woman....in one of my replies someone
called me sir, and I just wanna clarify that... We are all made
equally, no one is superior to anyone else, although in this country
people believe they are...I understand about the bad things that
happened to our people in the past, but we must forgive, as God has
forgiven us so many times...you call yourselves "God-like" or in the
image of God, then be as compasionate and understanding as He has
been to you...be as equally loving as he is to all man kind...You
cannot just love a certain group of people because they are
black...black is just a colour, although in this country we make it a
big deal...society only sees colour, not the people, and most likely
that will never change...Hopefully by the blood of jesus christ you
guys would understand what I am trying to say...
g'bye
Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 01:24:15 -0000
From: imassutse
Subject: Re: Understand
How do you know? The only way that someone can say this (the Five Percenters say it ALL the time) with such confidence is to know everything... Because you are not omnipotent, you can't say with certainty that there is no God, period. Not to mention that the absence of God runs contrary to human nature.
imagination. He was created to help man explain Rain, Hail, Snow,
Earthquakes, Sickness, Death, and so on or anything, in which the
deaf, dumb, and blind cannot explain for themselves. Even those
that cannot understand the tranformation into the Universe as we
currently know it. The only God or highest form of Intelligence is
the Original Man, man meaning mind and Original being thr source of
this intelligence (mind) This Original Man is the Black Man. It is
common sense that the further you get from the source the weaker the
force.
of everything we know in our world and the Universe. Everything in
existence owe it's foundation to the Original Man. For example
language was started by the Original Man. This language is
Mathematics, which was also used in the Khosian language groups or
so-called "click languages," which uses Mathematical combinations of
clicks to represent consanants, vowels, and ultimately nouns, verbs,
and so on. We are not racist because racism mean the BELIEF that
one's race is superior. I don't believe in anything. I Know that
the Original Man is the Supreme (First, Source, Prime) Being. No
matter if slavery hadn't happen that would not change the fact that
I am God and that I am a Black Man.
to overcome such a terrible event in history.
I am not God-like. I am God. Black is much more than a
color. In fact it isn't a color in the sense of Black Man and Black
woman, only in simple terms, maybe art. Being Black is a genotype
that is expressed internally (mental/genotype) and externally
(phenotype). The Black Man is a being in which his essence is
Blackness as in the Blackness of his melnated skin and the
Blackness, which is at the root of the cosmos and all organic life,
showing again that he is the source of Life, so how can he not be
God?
Omnipresent (self-explanatory), Omnipotent (research Blackness and
the strength of melanin), and Omniscient (note the root, scient,
which is also seen in science, conscience, conscious, all related to
the Black Man's mentality and ability to use this mentality to live
right and exact because he has a conscience)
Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 15:53:52 -0000
From: naasia_eternal
Subject: Re: Understand
Pardon me Queen. I didn't realize you were a sister, but on your
responses: Tell our slavemaster's children that. God is merciful, but
he is also wrathful and just. I have no time for the merciful, we are
the world, let's all get along mentality, because its counter
productive and unintelligent.
I am glad you have made it to a feeling of peace, to where you can
love your fellow man, although fellow man means someone who has
experienced what you have, but I am not there yet.
Peace in your travels.
NaAsia
This dialogue occured via email in response to a series of questions that I posted to the NGE Onelist. My questions are in boldfaced type.
Because this is his title by birth right.
He's The Original Man, The Asiatic Blackman, The Maker,The Owner,The Cream of the
Planet Earth,Father Of Civilization and God of the Universe. Nothing Separates him because that he is the foundation for all the Human families of the
Planet Earth.
This isnt a theory, this deals with science and actual facts.
No one should be il-legitimate according to one's ways and actions because knowledge of that individual comes first. Also, we
are a nation(family) of people who teaches that our Culture is Free once we Know and Understand who we are individually. IN this nation there's Good
and also some bad things one may be disgruntled with, but we arent a religion. No one's perfect which is why we as people strive for perfection.
Because It can be shown and proven in no limit of time.
Faith isnt real, because if it cant be seen(shown and proven) then it never existed to begin with.
No, I dont consider self to be an atheist because of the FACT that there is no Mystery God. God Is the Supreme Being, meaning the Highest Form
of EXISTENCE.
An NGE member and an atheist from the way I cee it have nothing in common because the NGE come together for one common cause and that's to teach
the babies civilization, righteousness,the knowledge of self, the science of life and love peace and happiness.
Peace
Me: Ok so let me get this straight, when you say that the Black Man = God, you
mean
that the Black Man = Ruler and Controller of his own universe? Let me know.
The reason that I said I have seen contradictory answers to this is because
I have
heard some say that you have to "become" a God. Are you saying that a Black
Man
who has never heard of this nation is ALREADY God and just is not
self-aware?
NGE member: Indeed.
Me: Again, why is the knowledge of the Asiatic black man presented as fact?
Do you disagree that it takes a certain amount of faith to believe
that theory to be true?
NGE member: Well if it is Knowledge, then it is already a fact. That's just
logical. Knowledge is Certain, belief and theory are shaking, you
can always test a theory though to see if it is true or not, then it
becomes a fact. It is already a fact, its just a theory to you
because you may not have made the investigation. In reality, its not
any type of theory. Man exists. The Asiatic
Black Man is the Original Man. We are the Original Intelligent
people. We are not teaching people to "believe" this, we are teaching
them to research to see that this is actually a reality that
can be proven scientifically.
Me: Well all knowledge is not good knowledge. We are living in a virtual
knowledge explosion! Just because someone says that they have knowledge of
something, that information needs to be DEMONSTRATED to be true before it
can be accepted as factual. Now you all in the NGE may feel that YOUR
knowledge = fact, but please realize that you still need to demonstrate WHY
it is fact (I know that some of you may feel that you don't have to
demonstrate anything, I have come across this attitude before, however I was
under the impression that you all are the "poor righteous teachers" that
want to make this message known and understood by the ignorant masses... How
can I understand if it is not explained?) Thank you rootociv for at least
expounding on your answers a little bit... This is more explanation than
others I have encountered in the past.
It is a fact that the Black Man exists and there is evidence that the oldest
skeletal remains found were those of a Black Man so the fact that the Black
Man in the Original Man has been demonstrated to me to be factual. However
it does not automatically follow that the Black Man is God because the Black
Man was demonstrated to be the Original Man. More has to be said. Does
this make sense?
NGE member: Peace. I said KNOWLEDGE, not just "information". Knowledge is
neither "good" or "bad", it is just Knowledge. How you APPLY
the knowledge can be "good" (wisdom) or "bad" (devilishment).
You are right though, we have to DEMONSTRATE or SHOW AND PROVE
what we say. I still don't understand your argument about the
confusion over "god" unless you think we are teaching that some
magical "god" exists. We are not "magicians" or do magic tricks.
We are scientists. We teach that there is no such thing as a
"magical" or "supernatural" god or supreme being, that the only
supreme being is a Scientific Man. Peace.
Peace.
The Black Man's universe is the ENTIRE UNIVERSE, so he is God
of the Universe, not just of part of it, ALL OF IT. That does
not mean he is a magician. It just means he is adding on to
bring life and order in the universe. Universe implies U-N-IVerse
so every BROTHER with this Knowledge is Connected and operating
as ONE UNIT, i.e. Allah. We may be different "people" but we
are the Same MAN (Mentality). It's similar to star trek the
next generation, were you have the "Q" they are all "Q", they
all have the same foundation mentally, even though there is
different personalities. A BROTHER'S IMMEDIATE domain is his
Family, your right in that, but otherwise, the entire universe
is his Universe, not a play thing, but it is his RESPONSIBILITY,
and he SHARES that responsiblity with his SELF, i.e. with his
BROTHERS.